Ligue 1 v EPL: Why I’m Right and Norfolk Ned is Wrong
I'm obviously the one on the right.
As I’m sure you are all aware by now, each day around here is filled with literally hundreds of emails flying back and forth between all of our authors (no, we don’t work, why do you ask). A good deal of those devolve into arguments and name-calling over petty issues, such as whether or not Jermaine Defoe is a twat or how many footballers Danielle Lloyd has actually slept with. Occasionally, we even agree on some things, such as the fact that Joey Barton is a terrible human being.
But sometimes, the disagreement is so vehement, and about such an important topic, that the only recourse is to turn the argument into a post and ask you, the readers, to decide which one of us is a nonce. This is one of those times. Ligue 1 versus the EPL. The NY Kid versus Norfolk Ned. On the face of things, it may seem an easy question to resolve, but follow me after the jump for all of the sordid details.
Now let’s get down to the details of the argument. This is not a simple “Which league is better?” argument – even I, patriotic Frenchman that I am, would not argue that Ligue 1 is of higher quality than EPL (although there are always distinctions to be made even within that question). But as we were discussing Arsenal’s continued pursuit of Blaise Matuidi (from AS Saint-Etienne) and the Arsenal/West Ham/Marouan Chamakh love triangle, Norfolk Ned decided to wind me up but stating that it was simply a case of “another Frenchman fleeing France” (he likes alliteration). He clarified himself to state that Ligue 1 is a seller’s league, and that the most talented players will always leave to go play in the EPL. I argued that while this was definitely true in the past, that is not the reality for this year. And I’m right.
First, let’s begin by taking at look at the players that left Ligue 1 clubs (good ol’ Ned tried slipping a few Ligue 2 transfers in there because he’s a cheater) to sign with an EPL(ish) side.
1. Gabriel Obertan (Bordeaux to Manchester United) – the 20 year old winger has played at every youth level for Les Bleus. He had 3 goals in 54 appearances for Bordeaux, and 1 goal in 15 appearances on loan at FC Lorient last season.
2. Steven Mouyokolo (Boulogne to Hull) – the 22 year old defender made only 13 appearances for Boulogne, but attracted interest from Newcastle, West Ham United, Wigan, and Stupid Fucking Bolton.
3. Gregory Vignal (RC Lens to Birmingham) – the 28 year old defender made 11 appearances for Liverpool between 2000 and 2005. He had 3 goals in 20 appearances on loan to Southampton last season.
4. Aruna Dindane (RC Lens to Portsmouth) – the 28 year old striker had 67 goals in 174 appearances for Anderlecht and 27 goals in 102 matches with Lens. He also has 16 goals in 50 matches for the Ivorian national team.
5. Frederic Piquionne (Lyon to Portsmouth) – the 30 year old striker had 23 goals in 91 matches for Saint-Etienne and 12 in 46 matches for Monaco before moving to Lyon, where he had 2 goals in 19 appearances. He has made only 1 national team appearance for Les Bleus.
6. Lorik Cana (Marseille to Sunderland) – the 26 year old midfielder had 1 goal in 27 appearances last season for Marseille, while also collecting 7 YCs and 1 RC. He has scored 1 in 36 matches with the Albanian national side.
7. Ronald Zubar (Marseille to Wolverhampton) – the 23 year old defender had 1 goal in 17 matches last season (along with 6 YCs and 1 RC), and also has 2 goals in 15 appearances for the Under-21 squad of Les Bleus.
8. Gael Givet (Marseille to Blackburn) – the 27 year old defender made 14 appearances on loan last season to Blackburn, and already has 1 goal in 2 matches this season for the club.
9. Youssuf Mulumbu (Paris Saint-Germain to West Bromwich Albion) – the 22 year old midfielder had 0 goals in 6 matches on loan to West Brom last season, and only 1 in 23 on loan to Amiens the season before that.
10. Chris Mavinga (Paris Saint-Germain to Liverpool) – the 18 year old defender has played on the U-19 side for Les Bleus.
Okay, let’s look at those objectively (no, seriously, I’ll be objective). Remember that the basic argument is that the most talented players leave Ligue 1 clubs to sign with EPL sides. If any of those components is missing (i.e. not a talented player; not an EPL/Ligue 1 side; not a move to a “bigger” club) than Ned’s argument falls apart faster than his mood swings.
1. Not a talented player – Right off the bat, Vignal and Mulumbu get dinged. Neither has featured much for their clubs over their entire careers, and no one is out there shouting “GET ME VIGNAL!” We can probably include Mouyokolo in this group as well, although I have a soft spot for him since he was born in the town in France where my grandparents used to live.
2. Not an EPL/Ligue 1 side – Mulumbu appears on this list as well, since he moved to West Brom, which is not an EPL side. Mouyokolo, Vignal, and Dindane all moved from newly-promoted Ligue 1 sides, but those moves came before the start of the season.
3. Not a “bigger” club – Piquionne, Cana, Zubar and Givet all fall into this category. The former moved from a Lyon side that didn’t need him (despite losing Benzema) to Pompey. The latter 3 all moved from a resurgent Marseille to a smaller club, with Zubar in danger of being relegated this season. While I rate the 4 of them, with Givet and Cana the best of the lot, it is clear that Marseille and Lyon, as two of the “Big 4″ of Ligue 1, are bigger sides than their new EPL clubs.
4. That leaves us with Gabriel Obertan. A definite talent, moving from a big Ligue 1 club to a massive EPL side. 1 player to demonstrate Ned’s point. How sad.
Who moved somewhere other than the EPL, or moved within Ligue 1?
1. Gervinho (Le Mans to Lille) – 7 goals and 3 assists in 33 matches last season for the striker. Transfer target of Marseille and Atletico Madrid.
2. Michel Bastos (Lille to Lyon) – 14 goals and 9 assists in 37 matches last season for the winger. Transfer target of Tottenham and Aston Villa.
3. Karim Benzema (Lyon to Real Madrid) – 17 goals and 2 assists in 36 matches last season for the newest Galacticos striker. Transfer target of Manchester United, Inter, and Arsenal.
4. Bafetimbi Gomis (As Saint-Etienne to Lyon) – 10 goals and 4 assists in 36 matches last season for the striker. Transfer target of Everton, Arsenal, Manchester City and Portsmouth.
5. Mevlut Erding (Sochaux to Paris Saint-Germain) – 11 goals and 6 assists in 36 matches last season for the striker. Transfer target of Marseille, Arsenal, PSV Eindhoven and Galatasaray.
That’s 5 well-regarded players who snubbed EPL advances to either stay in Ligue 1 (moving to another team within the league) or move to a different foreign league. 5 players to demonstrate my point.
Told you I was right. Let us know in the comments how right you think I am, and feel free to verbally abuse Ned. He’s used to it.
Comments
When the ‘Donovan to PSG’ rumors broke last week, someone said PSG were ‘a big club,’ which of course is a ludicrous claim, but in looking at some stats afterward I was shocked to see how hilariously shameful French teams have fared in Europe over the years.
Isn’t your argument fucked if Matuidi and Chamakh move before the window closes?
PSG is a big club – they are a traditional powerhouse in Ligue 1, and have won the UEFA Cup Winner’s Cup and Intertoto Cup.
In modern Champions League competition, Marseille has won 1 and finished in 2nd once, while Monaco has also finished in 2nd place.
My argument isn’t that Ligue 1 is better than EPL. It’s that it is no longer a given that a talented player from a Ligue 1 club will move to the EPL. And if Matuidi and Chamakh move to Arsenal, it doesn’t count because everyone knows that Arsenal is a French club.
I’d tend to agree with you, although it’s worth mentioning that transfers in general were down this year; with the exception of Manchester City and Real Madrid, nobody was really spending tons of cash.
That’s actually a luxury that France had; while some big clubs were selling to cover debts, no French club had any debt to cover. They were able to keep their player prices intact, instead of being forced to sell at a reduced rate. That made them a much less attractive destination for bargain shoppers, and every club (outside of two) were/are bargain shopping this season.
I’m still amazed that Gomis stayed in France; I thought he’d be in the Premier League for sure after ASSE’s last season.
Wait, they play soccer in France?
There’s also Sissoko, who’s spurned overtures from Spurs to remain in France.
I have no idea why I chimed in with that, besides my still wishing we had Sissoko in our midfield. How sad.
Haven’t PSG only ever won the league twice?
What exactly does it mean to be a “transfer target?” Isn’t a target something you want to hit? I feel some of the above “targets” are ersatz targets for teams who weren’t able to get their real “targets.”
Yes, Georger they have only won twice. How many EPL titles do Liverpool have?
Like six hundred.
That’s a rough estimate, could be closer to six fifty.
when will you guys learn not to rattle NYK’s cage about Ligue Unh?
Seriously though, let’s hope that defenses are better in France today than they were in the 1940s har har har har barharharharharhar
“In modern Champions League competition, Marseille has won 1 and finished in 2nd once, while Monaco has also finished in 2nd place.”
In the entire history of the European Cup that’s still the only win. Sure they have five runners up total, but that’s still less appearances in the final than Portugal or the Netherlands, and as many wins as Romania. I’m not knocking them, I was honestly shocked at that statistic.
I’m sure someone could use the defense of Billy Beane that ‘any knockout competition is a crapshoot’, but come on, they should have more than one star about a club crest by now.
Hey, I find it somewhat sad myself. Considering the overall play of clubs like Lyon, PSG, Marseille and Bordeaux you would surely think there were at least 5-6 championships among them in the entire history of the competition.
Rather than the “crapshoot” theory, I think it speaks more to the fact that historically Ligue 1 has been a selling league, with their superstars going on to provide firepower to other clubs, who wind up winning in the CL.
My point here was that I think this is changing somewhat, due to a variety of financial reasons. First, Ligue 1 benefits from the fact that the clubs are not allowed to carry a debt. While before this didn’t matter, now with other European clubs having to devote resources to debt rather than shelling out a bazillion dollars for a player, some of the stars of Ligue 1 are more likely to get a nice deal to stay at home. Secondly, as that balance of financial power shifts, I think that Ligue 1 sides will be better positioned to make runs in European competition, which will in turn provide them with even more money.
The basic gist is that I think the playing field is more even now. Not that Ligue 1 is better than EPL, or that there is massive upheaval in global soccer whereby Ligue 1 will dominate European competition. But I think a Ligue 1 team will win the CL much sooner than most people think, and that outside of a move to the EPL Big 4, Barca, or Real Madrid, more Ligue 1 stars will stay put.
It’s not just the French is it? It’s all players in France. All nationalities. They get the chance to go to the EPL and they run as fast as their legs will take them. The French League IS a selling league and whats more it’s the 6th best League in Europe after EPL, La Liga, Italy, Germany, Colaship. Now Kid, Please list ALL players fleeing France this summer for England, Spain, Germany and Italy. Lets see what we have. I know 12 left for the EPL alone. Why did they go? Because the French League is poo. Selling league.
Yes, one clearly moves PSG to West Brom because Ligue 1 is horrible. Or perhaps, as most logical people would conclude, one makes that move because they will get more time on the pitch at a horrible club like West Brom (or Sunderland, or Bongo, or Wolves, or Hull).
You nonce.
Who do you think the biggest star left in France is? The Cuff? Frankly I still don’t get why Milan let him leave (aside from the fact that they’ve been horribly run the past few years). With Benzema, Ribery, Malouda, and Nasri gone, they’re kind of light on the superstars they once had. That could be a factor to the slowing of their hemorrhaging of players.
@NYK? Move them? League One is full mate and quite frankly I don’t think Carlisle want to be replaced. You can ask them but I’m gonna guess it’s a no. Try Scotland? PSG would fit very well into the SPL.
@Ned – you know what I meant, dammit! Move FROM PSG to West Brom.
@Georger – Gourcuff and Chamakh, definitely, as well as Hatem ben Arfa. After that, Sofiane Feghouli, Eden Hazard, Ludovic Obraniak, Kevin Gameiro, Hugo Lloris, Aly Cissokho, Michel Bastos, Miralem Pjanic, Bafetimbi Gomis, Steve Mandanda, Julien Feret, Loic Remy, Stephane Sessegnon, Ludovic Giuly, Peggy Luyindula, Blaise Matuidi, Andre-Pierre Gignac.
West Brom much better side, playing at a higher level.
I don’t like it anymore than you guys, but I’ve gotta side with Neddy on this one.
Isn’t it more of a continuum, though? You’ve got the EPL and La Liga on the top (because, honestly, they’ve got the biggest stages), Serie A/Bundesliga/Ligue 1 under that, and, I don’t know, Switzerland under them. It’s not that France sells to everyone, it’s just that when it comes to the EPL and La Liga (or, more specifically, the top clubs in said leagues), every other league is a selling league.
@Georger – you’re disgusting
@Ned – if you think that West Brom beats PSG on a neutral pitch, then you are smoking something illegal
I would have preferred “you’re a monster”
They played at a higher level last year and will again next year. Sorry, League 1 is poor. Selling league with a poop standard. It’s one tiny notch above the SPL and Celtic and Rangers are Colaship and the rest League One.
I’m pretty sure that NN is pushing NYK’s buttons, but I also think NN rarely watches Ligue 1 (who does except NYK?) and is a bit biased.
Sorry, League 1 is poor.
You’re right, that’s why Norwich play there.
It’s Ligue 1, you Philistine.
Kid? What does Ligue 1 translate to in the language I speak? And it has much more in common with English League One than you think. Poor selling league. Where’s the list of all the exiting players from France to England, Spain and Italy?
You are right, it would take you 6 months to write, save your energy old chap.
From what I can see, since January, Serie A teams have brought in 3 players from Spain, France and England (actually all from Spain) and sent out five (two to France). Teams in the Spanish Primera have acquired 17 from England, France and Italy and sent out 14. Teams in the Championship have bought two players from Spain, Italy and France and sent out two. Teams in the EPL brought in 16 players from France, Spain and Italy and sent out 17. ESPN’s transfer figures for Ligue 1 are terrible; they only account for seven teams. From what I could piece together on my own, Ligue 1 teams have brought in 7 players from Italy, England and Spain and sent out 8.
So from raw numbers, at least, the “buying” league, if you will, is La Liga, and the others are basically balanced. There’s one transfer unaccounted for, and it’s probably in France since I had to use a different source for those. Even so, a one player difference isn’t much to base a “Ligue 1 is just a selling league!” claim on.
Also, the presence of Newell’s Old Boys in the Primera de Argentina is a continual source of hilarity.
ima have to side with nyk here. in the past yes most definitely ligue 1 was a selling league but it wasnt out of necessity it was b/c clubs from other leagues would toss buckets of cash at the talent they desired and the french teams had no chance to hold on to the player b/c even if they could match the wages on offer they couldnt match the prestige of teams like manure, cuntalonia, scouse, real, spartak, etc. however this year it does seem the top talent is staying in france. gignac, matuidi, and chamahk are all hot commodities but none have moved whereas in the past they definitely wouldve been poached. also i think ligue 1 gets a bum rap in its standing among other euro leagues. this is mainly due to the quality of the teams in the bottom part of the league, this could definitely apply to other leagues too (spl, eredivisie, serie a, bundesliga), i think the top half of ligue 1 stacks up real well against the spl, the eredivisie, and its certainly a better league than the colaship
@Machine Gooner Funk. Bingo. Whether or not the league is poo (it is) is irrelevent, the players want better football and the teams cannot financially compete.
@Kid. My final word on the matter. An this says it all..
http://picasaweb.google.com/TheFansAttic/UF2?authkey=Gv1sRgCL3vwc_BiqSCnwE#5373996130409102546
Ligue 1 WAS a selling league and this may be the first year it hasn’t been one entirely. I’d say that if Benzema had stayed then this would have helped the argumentation process
[...] Another interesting take on Ligue 1 vs. EPL. (Unprofessional [...]
I won’t say Ligue 1 is better than Premier League, but Ligue 1 is definitely growing slowly and are exciting to wathc this season, remember that Lyon and Bordeaux are now top of thier group in CL !
My ranking :
1) Premier League
2) La Liga
3) Serie A
4) Ligue 1
5) Bundesliga
@ ningkupo, You said this:
“My ranking :
1) Premier League
2) La Liga
3) Serie A
4) Ligue 1
5) Bundesliga”
Please note that going forward NN has decreed that all league names must be translated into the Anglo language.
Thus, your post should have been:
“My ranking :
1) Premier League
2) The League
3) A Series
4) League One
5) Federal League ”
Try not to make that speak-crime again.
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