World of his own?
Its never nice to see a player hurt in the way Aaron Ramsey was this past weekend, but sometimes football is football and these things happen. There is always a risk on the pitch and when the game is played at pace, there are bound to be casualties from time to time.
Now, full disclosure, I have absolutely nothing against Arsenal at all–In fact I often enjoy watching them play football, it’s a pleasure. I hate Ips**t, I’m not fond of Wolves, I like it when Colchester lose out of spite and I’ll root against the evil trophy shoppers of Saaath Laandon whenever they pull on those blue shorts and lace up their boots. That’s it–Nothing at all against the Gooners; but after the Shawcross incident this weekend, I read some of the most ridiculous crap from Gooners fans AND from their manager. Nonsense that pointed to a conspiracy against poor little Arsenal, how the world of football is against them–I’ll elaborate after the jump.
First off, lets deal with the Ramsey leg break; If you listen to Arsene Wenger or his army of fans, you’d have thought Ryan Shawcross took to the field in chainmail, armed with concrete shin pads and a mindset for bloodlust. It was a horrendous tackle and he should be banned for a long time– What tosh..here’s what happened:
Shawcross is the player in possession, its his ball to lose–He takes a heavy touch and runs onto the ball to slap it forward, as he does so, Ramsey sees it’s lose and decides to try and get there first. He makes contact with the ball as Shawcross swings to kick–Ramsey is too quick to the ball, extending his leg out to poke the ball forward and their legs clash as Ramsey’s leg is grounded in front of the Stoke defender, the rest we know.
Ramsey took a risk challenging for the ball in that situation and Shawcross had his eyes on the ball and nothing else; It’s awful that Ramsey is injured and I really feel sorry for him, but there is no malice here at all, its football–It’s what happens from time to time when two guys try and kick the same ball. Match of the day on BBC1 showed every angle and slo-motion video to prove that Shawcross was attempting to kick the ball with his laces at the point of contact–As pointed out by the Independent newspaper’s Sam Wallace, who, like me, thinks what happened on Saturday in Stoke was an unfortunate accident.
Shawcross leaves the pitch in tears after hurting Ramsey
After the incident, Twitter exploded with opinions from Gooners– some famous (talking about you Alan Davies) and all echoed the same opinion–That Shawcross is a ‘filthy thug who should be banned’. Arsenal manager, Arsene Wenger also called for a ban at the post game presser. While I understand he is upset, opening his trap and commenting before seeing the replay properly is out of order–Yet when Arsenal are involved in something of a controversial nature, Wenger doesn’t see the incident and says he will wait until he does to comment. How convenient! As the manager of a Premier League team, with the ears of many supporters, he should have shown some maturity and waited until later to comment, after processing the incident–instead, he acted on emotion alone with no basis for vilifying the young player.
The only thing Shawcross is guilty of is being competitive and trying to kick a ball he was in possession of. It shows a lot of character, effort and drive that Ramsey tried to take it and I’ll say it again, the injury is sickening and I hope he recovers quickly– he is a great talent. But Gooners fans and Arsene Wenger need to get some perspective here; It happens..It was an accident.
Guess who thought this was mistimed?
Gooners staff and fans also have short memories–A few weeks back, William Gallas nearly broke the leg of Mark Davies in a tackle that was an absolute disgrace-the ball was gone and he still ploughed in. Yet Wenger called it ‘mistimed’.
No one is saying that Wenger and Arsenal fans should not be upset, but to make Shawcross a villain for a tackle that only Gooners fans are calling vicious, is too much, as is declaring a grand conspiracy against Arsenal on behalf of every other team in the EPL.
‘It’s a conspiracy! Woe is Arsenal!! Everyone has it in for us and is trying to injure our players!‘ — What a load of bollocks. This is the Premier League, the top league in the World and guess what? It’s physical. If it seems that Arsenal players are muscled off the ball a lot? Then maybe there isn’t enough balance in the side, compared to other teams featuring bigger, stronger players. Who’s fault is that? I don’t see Fergie or Ancelotti complaining.
If you believe Arsene Wenger and Arseblog, then its the media’s fault because they tell the world that Arsenal players are pussies who don’t like to be tackled! Wenger says that teams are told to ‘get at them’ and be physical–Oh how special, of course I’m sure Stoke are told to back off and give every other opponent plenty of time on the ball.
Along with the media claim, Arseblog also refers to the Shawcross incident as “a horrendous challenge”. I’m sorry–I just don’t see their claims on either front–and neither do most people not clad in red and living in Wengers world.
Arsenal fans have had 3 serious leg injuries over the last 5 years and Eduardo’s broken leg against Birmingham in 2008 is still fresh in the memory–But there is no conspiracy and no one is out to get Arsenal. Every team has serious injuries, its what happens when 22 fit athletes play a mans game at speed. And even with malice? Many other teams have suffered just as much–A bad tackle doesn’t always break a leg, but it may put a player out for a while (more on injured EPL players in a minute). As for breaks, there are loads to look back at over the last ten years NOT involving Arsenal: Henrik Larson at Celtic, Djibril Cisse at Liverpool (twice), Modric at Spurs, Phil Mulryne at Norwich, and many more.
Right now, here are the current ’starting 11′ EPL players out with injuries after challenges on the pitch: Luis Boa Morte, Sean Davis, Michael Essien, Kieran Gibbs, John Pantsil, Ryan Giggs, Anderson, Chris McCann, Owen Hargreaves, Clint Dempsey, Ian Ahsbee, Glenn Johnson, Anthony Gardner, Martin Petrov, Ryan Nelson and Herita Illunga.
There are more at other clubs than at Arsenal currently, but to Wenger, nothing exists outside of his red bubble.
Wenger can champion his conspiracy theories this morning, but back in 2002 when his players had collected 11 red cards in just 37 games, his attitude to the way football was played in England was completely different:
“..the passion and commitment of the English game. You have to ask yourself if you want to take that out of the game here. When I watch a Serie A game, I’m bored after five minutes. If you want totally clean football, you’ll get bored.”
Arteta was out for a long time at Everton after a bad tackle and Marouane Felaini was injured a couple of weeks back by Zorba the Greek at Liverpool– but is David Moyes whinging like a school girl without a ‘Backstreet Boys’ reunion ticket? No–Because he understands that these things happen, without there being a ‘conspiracy’.
Is anyone talking about Ballack’s tackle against Tevez from last Saturday? No–because Tevez doesn’t have a broken leg–But it was a dangerous tackle with intent–The Shawcross incident was not.
Talking of tackles and fouls, do you think Shawcross (or any Stoke player for that matter) ranks higher than an Arsenal player in the Premier League fouls list?
Excuse the pic, Its from my telly!
Alex Song of Arsenal ranks 7th with 51 fouls and 8 yellow cards. Where does Shawcross rank? 65th, just one tackle more than Arsenal skipper Cesc Fabregas.
As for Arsenal being victims, Hull, Everton and Spurs players have been fouled more. Arsenal have committed more fouls (344) than 8 other teams in the Premier League (see left) collecting more yellow cards than Manchester United, Fulham, Manchester City, Burnley and Chelsea.
Football has its risks, like any sport, and while some tackles are malicious, many others aren’t,–they are simply footballers playing football, being competitive and playing the game as they are expected to by mangers and by fans– 100% effort with points at stake.
Accidents just happen.
THANK YOU.
Hello ned, its not hockey. You retaliate for physicality and the ref gives your guy a red card.
no one is justifying ‘retaliation’ – The game is physical.
I just have one question…If Aaron(who should weigh more, be more muscled and should have trained more to prevent a broken leg)’s career isn’t over from this accident that the nice lad Shawcross(who is a hard, physical player like all good player should be) will it be acceptable for Aaron to jump, move, dive, avoid innocent challenges in the future?
Are you going to label him a cheat and a diver than if he becomes wary of innocent challenges? Please explain to me how players are suppose to tell the difference between those intended tackles and one’s like the one that broke his leg?
Cisse’s happened the second time when he was playing for France…
@Barry, yes it did, and Larsons was in Scotland and Mulryne’s in the Colaship.
FYI-Ned plays contrarian. He spent about 30 emails on Saturday trying to convince the rest of us it wasn’t even a foul.
@Jess, Look–no one is saying he should be bigger, I was pointing to the overall thesis by Wenger on how Arsenal are victims when I suggested balance-As you can see from the foul stats, Arsenal give as good as they get.
Ramsey tried to poke a ball away from a guy about to kick it. It happens.
@Jess and being any more physical would not have made a differnece. Arshavin has comitted more fouls this term than Shawcross.
There isn’t a conspiracy to harm Arsenal players; there is a conspiracy of tactics used by clubs in the bottom ten when playing Arsenal – tackle hard and fast to break up their passing. “Be fis’cal!” as one of my youth coaches used to implore. A byproduct of such physicality are injuries, accidental or not.
So, I do not subscribe to Wenger’s cry of “Conspiracy! Collusion!” It’s a logical fallacy on his part.
Re: Arseblog: Shawcross’ tackle wasn’t horrendous – he was playing the ball. But, think on the type of blog Arseblog is. Of course his take is going to biased. That’s the entire point of the blog.
@u75
You knew what I was saying, the fact he kicked him means its a foul but all of our Gooners were screaming how evil Shawcross was.
You’ll see far worse by those cloggers in Aberdeen you love so much :)
Oh ok, I thought you were mentioning them in the context of the EPL. Anywho, in a situation like this, one must just compare the “evil” Shawcross to the infinitely more evil Alex Witsel to see what an evil and malicious player really looks like.
Ned- At Ned those physical comments were not directed completly at you. More so at the people who make comments like Arsenal players should train more to prevent these things. If you are going to say it was an accident than you can’t say you should train to prevent a broken leg. You can’t have it both ways.
Arshavin may have commited more fouls but what kind of fouls are we talking about? I think it’s a little bit specious reasoning to say because Arshavin has commited more “fouls” than Shawcross we give a good as we get.
@U75 and as for being contrary–Only Gooners see this incident as a bad tackle by Shawcross, no one else. People who don’t like the facts or don’t want to hear the truth shout ‘contrary’ at opposition thoughts just like they shout ‘Shawcross is the devil’ and believe it along with Wenger.
@Jess, he lifts his leg or gets there a bit later and its a bruise. His leg was stranded on the floor and any contact breaks it.
I agree with you, but in Wengers case, he can’t have it both ways either.
As for Arshavin, it doesn’t matter. Shawcross was trying to kick a ball he was in possession of.
Bravo. It was not a bad challenge. Surely this controversy is part of the reason we watch and talk about the game.
“Ramsey tried to poke a ball away from a guy about to kick it. It happens”
In this case maybe, but when teams are willing to admit that their plans to deal with Arsenal are to be tough and shut them down..What exactly are we talking about? I am not saying there is a conspiracy against Arsenal. Who has the time to organize something like that? What I am saying is that more talented players, players with more natural skill face very dangerous times on the field. I hate Ronaldo as much as the next person but even I am willing to admit when he played in the EPL people tried to take him out. Ferguson moaned about that too.
Accidents do happen but saying beforehand your going to be “hard”, “physical” etc to deal with a team is not an accident
It’s certainly nice that the reward for being quick and skillful is a broken leg. It’s Eduardo and Diaby all over again, with new names.
EF is completely right, and Barney Ronay is as well; it’s a tactical thing. At some point, “forn’ers don’t like it up ‘em” stops being a valid tactic and starts being dangerous. We’ve been at that point for a while now.
The office bathroom was out of toilet paper. This was a suitable substitute.
While we’re discussing conspiracies, I also blame the EPL (sans Arsenal) for 9/11, JFK’s assasaination, Franz Ferdinand’s assassination, and being shot down repeatedly by Ms. Alexis Neubauer in 7th grade.
@Jess
1: I have seen an awful lot of Stoke this season, I have live blogged them 3 times I believe and seen plenty of what they are about. This is how they play, they did the same to Liverpool. This is how they compensate for less talent; they force the opponent to pass quickly but closing down the player on the ball, take away the time, force a turnover. In this case, ‘dealing with Arsenal’ is irrelevant as Shawcross is in possession. Gooners don’t like the idea that it was Ramsey, who tried to take a ball off Shawcross,’dealing with him’ so to speak– maybe shouldn’t have planted his leg at a strecth like that? Asking for trouble? /awaits Gooner backlash
2: Players like Ronaldo who run and players and take them on will always get kicked, if you are going to try and skin a guy, he is going to try and take the ball and in all likelyhood, foul you if you are too quick. Ronaldo also hit the deck faster than anyone else.
@MCR I wouldn’t call sticking your leg out to poke a ball away ‘skillful’. Watch the play, what did he hope to achieve? Where does the ball go? Its a horrible horrible injury to a talented kid, I really feel for him, but really, he was going nowhere had Shawcross not kicked him, his leg was out to merely push the ball away from the Stoke player, there was no hope of controlling it. the ball ends up back in Stokes posession.
@HL
I’m sorry you and every Gooner see this differently. I may be the same way if it happened to a Norwich player, but that wouln’t make me right.
So he shouldn’t challenge for the ball, because Stoke players are special like that? After all, it’s his own fault, right? Had he not been too quick for Shawcross, his leg wouldn’t have been broken?
@MCR Come on–You can pick words out and be selective if you like. Watch it again. The guy is trying to kick a football, in a game of football. You want to take the ball away? Theres a risk.
“maybe shouldn’t have planted his leg at a strecth like that?” Really Ned? Really??
“This is how they play, they did the same to Liverpool. This is how they compensate for less talent”- That was kinda my point sir, And to be fair to them it doesn’t have to be how they play. For the first half of the game they played pretty well, they worked that damn long throw in like nothing else and they did a good job a keeping Arsenal out by playing well. It was when they allowed Arsenal to pass more, got tired etc the things started to get clippy
My biggest concern with the whole game was the way that it was called by Peter Walton. Teams have the right to go out and commit repeated hard fouls, but the referee has an obligation to call such fouls consistently. Referees cannot have certain expectations for how many fouls to call or when to call them–that is how you get the blown call on Vidic in the Carling Cup. Clearly Phil Dowd did not want to give a red in the first five minutes. If Vidic makes that foul in the second half, it is probably a red.
By waving play on through the first hour, including through a blatant penalty shout, Walton set the game to go harder and harder. In fact, the only card to that point was the phantom yellow on Alex Song (hard to criticize him for making lots of fouls when he gets called on plays like that). Players were able to push the limits until someone got hurt. I’m not saying Shawcross went in with malice, but he might have thought twice about diving in like that had the game been called more tightly and by the letter of the law.
@Ned – You should just give up trying to reason with them, it’s clear they just want to drink the Wenger kool-aid and sulk the day away with their conspiracy pity party.
@ knocsucow00- Please explain to me where I once said that it was a conspiracy against Arsenal? I have been having a rational conversation with another person and answering his comments. I am not sulking nor drinking Kool-aid.
Ned clearly wanted to have a discussion about this or he would not have posted the article he did. You can’t call us all moaners and whiners and then not give us the chance to reason back.
Jesus if anyone is making a bigger deal out of this it is none Arsenal fans with the typical “oh here are Gooners crying again.” For the third time in 4 years we have seen one of our players face a possible career ending injury. You are right there is nothing to be upset about there.
@Jess,
Look, it was an accident, I have been kicked doing similar–not that I had time to process the risk at the time, you just do–how football is played.
There is nothing wrong with closing a player down to force them to give the ball away, nothing–its how the game is played by many. Manchester United did it to Inter to great effect. Villa do it very well and Everton too.
You seem to have misunderstood. Ryan Shawcross’s action was accidental. The mindset that’s led to three broken legs in away games up north, though, is deliberate and unacceptable.
@ MCR Thank you. You said what I have been trying to say in two sentances. Guess we women really do tend to be wordy.
Can we please shake hands and go back to hating Man Utd?!?!
“You seem to have misunderstood. Ryan Shawcross’s action was accidental. The mindset that’s led to three broken legs in away games up north, though, is deliberate and unacceptable.”
So something accidental, stem from a deliberate mindset?
You are right Jess, I take back what I said about you claiming a conspiracy. *rolls eyes*
“I’m sorry you and every Gooner sees this differently.”
I strive for objectivity and consistency; I agree with your point that the tackle wasn’t dirty (and in so doing, disagree with Arseblog). I even disagree with Wenger’s decision to cry, “Plot!” But of course we see this differently than everyone else; it happened to our boy.
Now, if you really want to get conspiratorial, the three players Shawcross has injured were all either playing for, or used to play for, the Arsenal.
@knocs: The tactics are deliberate; the injuries, while accidental, stem from the game plan of hard, fast tackles and more physicality. That’s not conspiracy.
I have a feeling that among those who make it to NYC for the England-US game, this is going to lead to more fisticuffs than any sort of national loyalties.
@ knocsucow00- I don’t want to speak for someone else but I believe the mind set he was refering to is the fact that if you cannot match a team/player on a talent/skill level than it is more than acceptable to hack that player down. I do not believe this is just against Arsenal. I believe that is against any team/player that is more talented notice the Ronaldo example.
I’m sure however if this had happened to 3 members of which ever team you support you would clearly not be upset about this and not make one complaint because after all this is how the game is played.
@all
I fail to see how kicking a ball in your possession, or at all in a game of football is an unnacceptable mindset.
@MCR How is the location a factor? Northern folk dirty? (I kid!)
@EF – So then bemoan the tactics which are deployed against many teams, not just Arsenal.
From my view though an accidental tackle such as this could have just as well game in a game without a game-plan for “hard, fast tackles and more physicality.”
What you should really be studying analyzing then, is the suppose teams who deploy this game-plan what is the frequency of injuries to the opposing teams? Then you might have a point.
Again, no one likes to see anyone hurt, and I understand that this is yet another potential career ending injury to an Arsenal player, but that is just bad luck.
Would Arsenal fans have this outcry against this suppose type of tactics/game-plan had this accidental unfortunate tackle resulted in injury to a non-Arsenal player?
I’m re-posting something I said earlier because everything I say is important.
“I’m not saying Arsenal should be given a free pass to play the way they do. I’m just saying there should be consequences for both the beauties and the beasts. If a team plays flowing, attacking, football without much in the way of a physical presence, they’re going to be subject to physical (but legal) play, muscled out of possession, and not have much time on the ball to do what they want. They’ll also likely give up a fair amount of goals on set pieces (sound familiar?) and be subject to quick counters when their fullbacks lose possession in the attacking third. Likewise, there should be consequences to playing more physical, less skilled football–you’re going to give up a lot of free kicks in dangerous areas and potentially see one of your players sent off. There should be a balance but it seems like harsh tackling and overly-physical play is given the benefit of the doubt. Broken legs are not, then, an unfortunate accident but a direct product of this emphasis.”
Thank you Ned. Thank you, thank you. Reasoned and thought out (and correct).
The more I look at the video, the more I think it shouldn’t have even been a red card.
It was a 50/50 challenge, nothing more. Arguments about fouls and style of play don’t even apply to this situation.
@Jess – There is always going to be some perceived more “talented/skillful” side in each match. There is no way to change this, there is no way to fix this.
There is no way to remove tackling from football.
Hence, there is no way to remove ACCIDENTAL unfortunate tackles that result in injuries like we saw to Ramsey.
What exactly are you trying to change about the current game? There will always be tackling, the game will always have some level of physicality.
@Goat – I agree with you there, and I think the consequences are played out in the results more than anything.
I’ve just been re-watching the video again (only up to a certain point) and I’m not so sure about how innocent everyone is making it out to be. Sure, I don’t think Shawcross intended to break Ramsey’s leg, but I do think it is clearly a result of Shawcross’s style and/or the tendency for lesser skilled teams to just put a boot up Arsenal’s ass. Clearly both players are challenging for a ball that’s gotten away from Shawcross and Ramsey gets there first. But when Ramsey first gets a touch, it appears that Shawcross’s leg is still cocked back. I know that at the speed of the game it’s difficult but Shawcross could have pulled back a bit, especially when he could see that Ramsey was challenging for the ball and was likely to get to it first. Remember, Ramsey didn’t come out of nowhere and cut in front of Shawcross in mid-kick. Shawcross could see him coming. I also wonder why Shawcross is swinging hard enough to break someone’s leg in that challenge. If he connects with the ball, it lands in Row Z. Now, I’m not suggesting that nobody ever go hard into a challenge, I just think that maybe he’s doing so in order to intimidate Ramsey from making another such challenge.
“I fail to see how kicking a ball in your possession, or at all in a game of football is an unnacceptable mindset.”
@Ned: Reductio ad absurdum or straw-man? It’s unfair to yourself to tailor your argument to the most emotional and wrong-headed Arsenal fans/twitters/bloggers. Your points are strong enough on their own merits.
@Knocs: I will bemoan the use of such tactics against any squad. I’d rather watch quick passing and movement over jarring tackles and hoofing the ball any day.
Your idea of analyzing the ratio of tactics-to-injuries given is interesting. I’d like to see an article on that.
Ned is a terrible human being.
And I’m fairly certain that Ryan Shawcross was on the grassy knoll.
@Goat, Find the BBC MOTD slo-mos. Prove the kick was aimed at the ball, toe down, laces at ball.
@Steve: agreed that more often than not the more skilled side wins but even this season, I’d trade yesterday’s win to have Ramsey not get injured. I guess all I’m saying is there’s a fine line between legal physical play and dangerous play and I’ve got no problem with being out-muscled, and out-hustled and losing a game (actually I do, but not with the team that’s doing the out-muscling and out-hustling) but I do have a problem with winning a game at the expense of the players’ health.
@EF – I agree, the quick passing is obviously a much more pleasing match to watch.
The tactics-to-injuries article might also back up Jess somewhat implied statement that an Arshavin foul and a Shawcross foul are not created equal.
Jess – “Arshavin may have commited more fouls but what kind of fouls are we talking about? I think it’s a little bit specious reasoning to say because Arshavin has commited more “fouls” than Shawcross we give a good as we get.”
“What exactly are you trying to change about the current game? There will always be tackling, the game will always have some level of physicality.”
I agree there will always be tackling and physicality the point I was trying to make but have clearly failed in explaining myself is that I do not think that this should make it acceptable to go out and hack at other players because they are more gifted than you.
If England wants to produce more technically gifted players than perhaps they should stop celebrating this culture of “physicality” when you really mean if you can’t beat em than hack the bone because they don’t like it. Call it an accident everytime someone gets badly hurt and we won’t have to come up with positive solutions to have a physical but safe game will we?
Either way I’m done. All we are doing is arguing in circles and re-hashing the same old thing. I don’t have all the answers but clearly neither do the refs, the F.A or Fifa.
I just wouldn’t want to be the one saying to a young man whose career could possible be over. “Sorry this is how the game is played.” There is something incredibly cold and wrong with that statement no matter which team he plays for.
@Steve: Does framing the incident as a 50/50 ball change the argument? Absolutely. But if we accept it was a 50/50 ball – which is debatable, but I understand the point of view – why, as Goat points out, was Shawcross attempting to kick the ball so hard it broke Ramsey’s leg? Meaning, if his challenge was successful, what did he intend to do next?
@Ned: I’m not saying it wasn’t. It just looks like Shawcross’s mindset was “I’ve taken a heavy touch and am about to lose the ball. I’ll just kick the s**t out of it and see what happens, and if Ramsey gets there first, he’ll think twice about challenging for a ball like that again.” Yes, he thought all of that in .001 seconds.
@ Goat – I also agree with, and I didn’t mean to indicate that the 3 points was worth Ramsey’s leg, only that it has been the case that the more talented, technical teams tend to win against the more physical teams, so there’s a certain balance there. I still think that playing physically is one of the only ways to keep up with the more talented teams (look at where West Brom’s “nice” play got them last season), but that is more a product of the system in England than anything else. A player like Shawcross is a professional because his employers expect a certain, consistent style of play from him and to ask him to play a different way isn’t fair. In other words, Shawcross has to play the way he does because he doesn’t have the technical ability of a Juan Roman Riquelme. If he took plays off or didn’t challenge hard every time, he wouldn’t have a job.
@Jess
“when you really mean if you can’t beat em than hack the bone because they don’t like it”
I know not of this above League One-Especially in the EPL.
Gallas does plenty of ‘being physical’ in the Arsenal defence, and in the days of Steve Bould, Tony Adams and Martin ‘missing link’ Keown, you were KNOWN for it. How the worm has turned. Defenders will always be physical. Its why they are 6 ft 4 and built like brick s**t houses. They will not be pushed around when a cross comes in-managers buy capable defenders; A short slight player is not a capable center half in any league in the world.
@Steve: no worries, I didn’t think that’s what you meant.
@ EF – I see your point, but I can’t get into Shawcross’ head. We could say that he was frustrated and wanted to boot it down the field or out of bounds. We could just as likely say that he thought he’d get there at the same time as Ramsey and thus a hard challenge where he was more likely to retain possession was the only way to, in fact, do so. Hard to make the psychological call there. What I’m basically saying is that, while it’s a terrible incident, I don’t see it as being outside the rules of the game.
@Jess – You make me sound as if I have less compassion than Ivan Drago (“if he dies…he dies”).
The problem with your argument is that you are against the “hacking down of more skillful players” game-plan, which everyone is…or should be.
But you are attempting to apply it to an accidental challenge, which would happen even in a utopian footballing world, where the hacking down of more skillful players doesn’t exist.
@Steve – it was a late tackle, not a 50-50 tackle. 50-50 has traditionally implied two players tackling the ball at the same time. semantics, but i think it matters in cases like this one.
@Ned – “I fail to see how kicking a ball in your possession, or at all in a game of football is an unnacceptable mindset”
i think you failed to see that Shawcross DID NOT kick a ball in his possession. attempted, yes, but failed. absolutely reckless (not malicious), straight red, 3 match ban (no more) is appropriate.
not a gooner btw, neutral regarding EPL. and you might think only gooners are upset by the foul, but in my circles English and EPL fans are about the only ones defending it.
@Michael.
1:Actually a 50-50 tackle is one that both players COULD get to at the same time. Usually someone always wins and loses, why its also known as a ‘hospital ball’.
2: See above, he tried to kick it, yes, that was his goal. Nothing else. Not reckless to me, he tried to kick a ball that was there, when his foot got there, the ball wasnt. No different to 2 players going for a header in the box, someone is getting it and someone isn’t. Shall we review all the head injuries?
Been some good debate here.
@Michael, it’s a 50-50 because neither player had possession of the ball. If Ramsey didn’t have possession, Shawcross couldn’t tackle it away from him. Because Shawcross got to the 50-50 challenge late (thus allowing Ramsey to “win” it), doesn’t change the fact that it was a 50-50.
@ NEd- Why are you assuming that I am just talking about Arsenal. Again and again I have mentioned that this happens to more technically gifted/skilled players.
The “hack the bone” bit was actually a Simpsons reference( Marge goes from telling her kids to play fair and do their best to yelling at Lisa to “HACK THE BONE” when her team is losing”) I was trying to inject some humour into a discussion that we are clearly not going to solve here.
I’m just going to have to let it go. It’s wrong when Arsenal players make dangerous tackles, it’s wrong when other players make dangerous tackles.
@Jess,
OK, regardless I still don’t see that attitude outside of League One. I think the attitude you refer to, may be what the terraces want? IE the chant when losing or being on the wrong end of a decision “f**k the ball, get into em”. Players don’t oblige.
“I’m just going to have to let it go. It’s wrong when Arsenal players make dangerous tackles, it’s wrong when other players make dangerous tackles.”
Nothing to see here, move along…:)
@ knocsucow00- Sorry I’m not trying to say you have no compassion. Also I think I finally get where we are confused.
“But you are attempting to apply it to an accidental challenge,”- I’m not saying what Shawcross did wasn’t an accident. What I was trying to argue against from the start was comments like those made on Talksport where they argue that what happened to Aaron is acceptable and in some cases his fault.
As an Everton fan just wondering what the difference is between Ramsey and fellaini, shawcross accidental caught ramsey media storm, Kyrgiakos trys to break fellaini ankle and no one bats an eyelid. Is it because of the statues of glass image that wenger has cultivated about his players, that they play football too beautiful to be tackled. Teams Play physically against Arsenal because it works and a lot of that is wengers fault every time he complains about bully teams like bolton, blackburn and even on occasion us the more he is saying that is how to play them (start of the season tried to play them lost 7-1, played physically last month they scraped a draw). Excuse the rant I am just bored of the whingers constant we are too beautiful to play with you ruffians schtick chelsea,man u and even liverpool seem not to whine too much about it. All the best to ramsey I hope he gets fit soon but it was an accident.
@Steve: Agreed. Shawcross’ challenge was within the rules as I know them – but barely. Upon review, it borders on reckless. Since it borders on reckless, and there was a broken leg, the straight red was inevitable.
What if Shawcross wasn’t red-carded? He was besides himself with grief; he couldn’t have continued playing anyways.
I advise everyone to watch the Sunday Supplemental discussion on the injury. The guys touch on the intrinsic nature of challenges like Shawcross’ to English footie. Really interesting.
Good post Neddy.
@EF: Agreed. Red was for the best.
Well, reading this was pretty great….I think that it has to be said that I agree that this is more of an accident than the mindset of “kick the s**t out of them”, but it’s a really gray area either way, and I think that the mindset perpetuates things like this, but not necessarily this. Either way, Shawcross, based on his history, needs to tone it down, as he’s pretty much going “The Last Boy Scout” on Arsenal
@Syndex
It was because it was visually horrific.
Ballack’s challenge on Tevez on Saturday was awful, but we are not discussing it as Tevez wasn’t injured.
Well, you’re discussing it. Endlessly.
@u75
Not like it would be discussed if it had a different outcome. Of course, if this had happened to an Aberdeen player, we wouldn’t be mentioning it at all.
I’ve read the whole thread, and the Shawcross tackle truly was nothing more than an accident that happened on a 50-50 ball.
A friend on my s**tty Sunday team pointed out that there is a lack of skill when it comes to tackling in today’s players. Nobody is truly taught how to tackle. But this wasn’t a tackle. And anyone who says it was a tackle isn’t really watching the video. It was a 50-50 ball and one foot got into a leg. Both were extended. Both were leaning in.
It was stupid horrible luck. Sure, give him the red and the 3 games because that’s the pound of flesh demanded, but let’s get past the hyperbole about it.
And full disclosure, I’m a Man Utd. fan who is shocked that Scholes hasn’t done this to someone years ago with how s**tty he is at tackling.
Well done, Ned.
On another note, I love when you guys all fight publicly. It’s so quaint.
Considering there is ZERO mid-week games except for stupid, f**k-all friendlys, I have a feeling this topic won’t go away any time soon.
@Eladio-Oh I am hyped for England v Egypt and the inevitable injuries it will produce!
(Following link is to a picture of the incident that the squeamish may wish to avoid. Really.)
http://i45.tinypic.com/29pvzis.jpg
Looks there like his leg gave way before the contact anyway. So Shawcross’s part is unfortunate but irrelevant.
@malti — I’m quite sure that photo was taken after the collision and not before. Look at the location of the ball…if your claim is that this is before contact, then it looks even worse because given the ball’s spot, he’s 100% playing the man and not the ball.
When it occured, it looked like a bad foul and I was plenty pissed, but didn’t realize the full extent of the injury. I don’t think he meant it, but regardless of it being a 50-50 ball (which I think it was), it was still a nasty foul. And we’ve all been guilty or a victim of them and its unfortunate that Ramsey might lose his career over this one (because, usually, it’s a bruise and you’re down a couple weeks).
The point has been made…while this act wasn’t deliberate, it is a byproduct of a ref not controlling play and a team and media obsession with “kicking” Arsenal. It’s been said for years that the way to disrupt Arsenal is to kick them. If you continually kick someone, or go hard into a challenge, eventually you will injure someone. Law of averages dicatates this.
I’m not saying the intent is to injure the player, but eventually that will happen even if there’s no intent to harm. I know you don’t like the drink driving example, but it’s appropos. I drink drive all the time and never injure anyone or get caught. So I keep doing it until I take it too far and hit another car. I didn’t mean to hit that other car, but I’m still accountable for my actions. I don’t think Shawcross meant to break Ramsey’s leg, but his style of play and coaching instructions led to that injury. So, f**k yea, you’re responsible! And everyone who has said, “kick Arsenal” and the refs who allow that manner of play enabled this injury to occur.
I’m sorry, but I say I’m going to “play footie,” I never tell the wife, “oi, I’m off to kick some f**ks in the shins and ankles because they’re better than me.” I play central mid and defense and I don’t give up my ground; I also don’t injure anyone either (who knows, maybe the law of averages will catch up with me).
Ah, sorry, there was meant to be a question mark at the end of my last sentence not a fullstop. Because I wasn’t very convinced either.
To me, a more pressing question about this Ramsey issue for Arsenal fans that I have not seen addressed yet is “If we think Fabs is headed to Barca this summer, then who will replace him?” Because I would have told you that Ramsey was being groomed for it about a week ago. Whether or not he is/was worthy of it, I think he was Wenger’s fallback.
@hockalees – Young bones heal fast. I bet he is back in shape by next seasons start.
No need to state what side I’m on in the debate, but it’s certainly been an interesting read.
Is it just me, or is there a lot more fighting on this site nowadays?
@Sarah–I don’t think so; Good for people to air their opinions.
Not fighting, this is good stuff. Kind’ve like Thanksgiving dinner with a giant dysfunctional family. I have enjoyed all of this.
Is it a new record for replies on a non-bootroom post?
also, cesc will be playing for le arsenal next season
“Shawcross’s tackle was never a red card – it wasn’t even a foul – while the penalty decision was a sick joke.” Courtesy of a Derek McGovern (whatever the f**k that is) at the Mirror. Am I so biased to think that there is no debate that Shawcross committed a foul? If I am then I’ll seek help but I was under the impression that regardless of allegiance it is plainly obvious that a foul was committed.
@HL
Its a foul by default because he kicked the player and not the ball, but it was an accident–the ref didnt even see it properly and he only walked on a red because of the outcome–best for the game.
@Ned
I concede it was an accident. I’m just incredulous that someone could think a tackle where a player gets man and no ball is not a foul.
@MCR How is the location a factor? Northern folk dirty? (I kid!)
It contributes to the whole atmosphere and the mindset. Northern teams are supposed to be hard and strong and beat up on the foreigners from Arsenal, because all Northern teams are assumed to be Bolton-esque.
@MCR I understand the working class analogy–and the ‘dirty northern bastards’ chant I’d like to sing at Norwich games but its not true..Meanwhile, Stoke isn’t ‘up north’ its about 30 miles west of Nottingham.